Speaker 0 00:00 Hey you. Yeah, you, if you or someone you know, is struggling with anything mentioned on today's program, please, please, please, please, please, please email
[email protected]. That's a U T H E N I C K. The
[email protected]. I am available 24 seven three 65 to help in any way that I can. I have resources. I have open ears and open heart and tons of hope. I've been freely given all these things and would love to give them to you. Be good to yourselves and each other before we get started today, I would like to tell you that suicide is mentioned multiple times. In this episode, if you or someone you know is going to be triggered by that, or you're struggling with suicidal ideation or you have a plan to commit suicide, please reach out, speak with a counselor today at the national suicide prevention lifeline, their number is +1 800-273-8255. That's +1 800-273-8255.
Speaker 1 01:10 Mama, mama, mama, mama, mama, mama, mama, mama, mama, mama mama, man. <inaudible>
Speaker 0 01:43 Welcome. Welcome. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the show. Wow. This is authentic where we get authentic.
Speaker 2 01:55 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 01:57 Wow. That jingle is really coming together. Hi. Hi there. My name is Nicholas Thomas Fitzsimmons Vanden Heuvel but most people just call me Nick. And this is my show authentic. Get it. It's like authentic, but with my name, Nick cool. Okay. And with me as always is my dog. Marla,
Speaker 3 02:18 Come here baby. Say hello to all of our listeners. Let's do a duet up where they walk,
Speaker 4 02:26 Uh, where they run,
Speaker 3 02:28 Huh?
Speaker 4 02:31 And does, uh, I could be
Speaker 3 02:37 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 02:41 All right. That's that's enough. Marla, go back to chewing on Ursula's tentacles. Hey, here on authen, authentic, we talk about all things recovery. What do I mean by that? All things recovery. What, what I mean by that is if you are still living and breathing on this earth, you, yes, you are recovery from something. As for me, I'm in recovery from an eating disorder. I'm an alcoholic. I'm a drug addict. I'm a compulsive gambler. I have bipolar disorder. Really? The list could go on and on and on and on. But fortunately for you, this show today is not about me. It is about two people. First, my guests, Joe second, the one person whose life might be saved by what Joe has to say today. Without further ado, Joe, welcome to the show.
Speaker 5 03:25 Please introduce yourself in any way you see fit. My sir. Wonderful. Well, I might not have the intro that you had, but uh, I'm Joe. I'm really excited to be here and tell my story, my experience, strength and hope let's get right into it. Shall we? Sure thing. Why are you here? I'm here because I feel like I have experiences that might benefit others. I'm an alcoholic. I'm an addict. I might have some other stuff going on that I don't yet realize. I think we all do Joe. I'm sure we do think we all do. Let's get down to when you started using substances, when did you start? What age? The first time I drank, I was 15 years old. So the first time I drank my friends and I stole a bottle of my friend's dads, Jack Daniels, we mixed it with Coke and still couldn't stomach it.
Speaker 5 04:14 I think the majority of us threw up. It wasn't a great experience. The next time I drank, I still some peppermint schnapps from my dad's liquor cabinet and I mixed it with some Phillips vodka, pretty gross. So I went to my friend's house to drink it. He ended up having mano. So I just drank the whole water bottle by myself. You are one classy abroad. I share threw up like a classy, broad. And you drank after that? Yes. Why? Because that is the, that was the best I had felt up to that point. For some reason, it felt like I had arrived. I was part of the gang. I was part of the cool people who partied more than that. It was the experience itself was unlike any I'd ever had. It felt right to me. When I got drunk, it felt like what I'd been waiting for your life.
Speaker 5 05:05 Leading up to that first encounter with alcohol, you felt wrong. I don't know if I felt wrong. It felt like all the cards were in place. I was pretty neurotic as a kid, nothing crazy, but I would overthink things. I would overthink everything. I would stay up very late into the night. Thinking about things, had this thought in my head that if even your thoughts are a sin, then I would go to hell, did you grow up in a religious household? I think that may be for, I just made, but I think it wasn't that it wasn't overly religious. I mean, we went to church on Sundays and Easter and Christmas. I went to Sunday school. They were no huge expectations. This neurotic side of you could that also be called anxiety as I would later discover, yes. This anxiety that kept building. When you started drinking, what happened to that?
Speaker 5 05:56 Anxiety disappeared. Like it was never there. I never over-thought things. I never worried. I just fit in. I didn't have to think about things a second time or a third time. That was it. I actually was kind of a social chameleon, made it a point to try and be nice to everyone and to be friends with everyone because I wanted people to like me and I wanted people to accept me. I don't think that I felt like I was good enough to be accepted by other people. Why is that? Where are you getting that message from your parents? From friends, from teachers? Where, where did this idea that I'm not good enough? Come in. I never received messaging like that for my parents. Even with grades and sports and all these things, they wanted me to work hard and they wanted me to do well.
Speaker 5 06:41 But all these expectations were self-imposed. What did you expect from yourself? More than I could achieve more than is possible. More than is realistic. It was what this is sounding like. Is perfectionism. Am I wrong? You are not wrong. You said you started at 15. How often were you drinking at 15 weekend warrior type stuff? It started, I think maybe my freshman year in high school. Were you using other substances at that time or were you just drinking first? I was drinking and then I was smoking pot. How long after you were drinking, did you start smoking marijuana pretty shortly. What did marijuana do for you? Marijuana really opened my eyes to a different way of thinking. I thought it was also something that I found was truly an escape, not like drinking. What in a different way. In what way? Smoking pot I could get away with whenever I wanted to.
Speaker 5 07:32 That just seemed to be more pragmatic for whenever I wanted to use it. I just enjoyed how it effected my mind. High school seemed generally pretty easy to me smoking weed and being a weekend warrior with drinking. Wasn't effecting my grades or chances at getting into college. So it seemed like a guilty, free pleasure joke. There's a lot to be said about the argument between nature versus nurture and chemical dependency. The nature part is, Oh, it runs in the family. It's in the genes. It's in my DNA. Nurture is my surroundings. What happened to me? Was there a traumatic event? What do you think your chemical dependency stemmed from? Does alcoholism or drug addiction run in your family tree? Yeah. To cover the nature portion. I have alcoholism and addiction in both sides of my family. Definitely in my mom's side, it's more prevalent. She is an alcoholic in and out of recovery.
Speaker 5 08:29 She was drinking heavily when I was in high school and in middle school, after she got divorced from my dad, of course the divorce affected me, but it affected her. Did you spend more time with your mom? I split even amounts of time between my mom and my dad. What was it like living at your mom's house? It could be really stressful. I fell into a caretaking role. She would get almost blackout drunk. She would forget every conversation we ever had felt like I needed to watch her and take care of her. When I confronted her, then I had to pour out her wine and moral outrage. And then I would go down to my room and smoke and Vaughn, Joe, I can't imagine what that's like. And I'm sorry, you had to go through that. No child should ever have to be the caretaker for their parent.
Speaker 5 09:16 Especially witnessing something as devastating as chemical dependency. Yeah. Thanks Nick. Yeah, I appreciate it. It was a hard time for me. Something that my friends didn't really understand. Did you talk to your friends about it? Sometimes I've found that, especially with male friends, vulnerable topics like that, don't come up unless you yourself are drunk or high. That's when the guard comes down and that's when people are able to have honest conversations about topics that are quote unquote taboo. Do you believe that today? Absolutely not. Now I can be completely honest with my friends. I have mostly male friends. I don't feel scared to talk about anything. Especially with people in recovery. What was it like being at your dad's house when your parents got divorced? My dad's house was a little different. I got along really well with my dad. He also had his girlfriend moved in, which was tough.
Speaker 5 10:12 The situation that, you know, every kid finds himself in. When they're divorced, parents start standing again. It's uncomfortable. You find ways to not like them, even if they're fine people. That's what I focused on when I was younger, how I didn't like her. Now it focused on how great of a person she is. Did you ever talk about what was happening over at your mom's house with your dad? I did talk about it. Sometimes. Mom was really bad. Literally. You would say mom was really bad. I didn't understand it for awhile. I didn't realize how much she was drinking until I started drinking. I could see her drink five glasses of wine or a whole bottle and think, okay, that's normal. And then when I started drinking, I thought, Holy shit, she's drinking a whole bottle of wine to herself on a fucking weeknight. Only when I started drinking, did I really realize how bad it was?
Speaker 5 11:02 I didn't talk as much about it then. I didn't want to go back and forth from my mom to my dad. There's a lot of children that are put in those situations that take advantage of it, that play one against the other. And it sounds like it was kind of a tale of two parents where your mom was drinking all the time. Her alcoholism was in full swing. And your dad, not a drinker, not a big drinker, not a big drinker. She worked a lot though. That was his thing. As I said, at the very beginning, if you are still living and breathing on this earth, you, yes, you are in recovery from something. And that very well could be a workaholic. I had a talk with him recently about it and my early memories of my dad, I was with him all weekend. Every weekend during the week he was gone before I got up was home after dark, every night when he was home for a late dinner, then I would mostly spend time with him on the, or at
Speaker 6 11:53 Night he was the president of a company then of another company. When he got that job, he moved to Duluth. He commuted back every weekend to see us. I think it was really hard on my parents' marriage. And they told me that too. He ended up getting a job closer, but they still ended up getting divorced. I did play both sides of my parents. I felt like I could sort of fall through the cracks.
Speaker 7 12:14 Well, that sounds natural. Where did you lie? You were lying in the middle of two isms. Your mom with her alcoholism and your dad with his workaholism and you were alone. Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned that the autonomy that you found when you were in Germany, wasn't the start of your autonomy at all? It started long before that, didn't it. When you went to Germany, finally, it had a label.
Speaker 6 12:38 Finally it had a label. I didn't feel alone when I had weed or alcohol as a companion, those were reliable. Those were things I could always turn to. I could always get a guaranteed effect. Those were stable things in my life that could help me feel how I wanted to feel when I wanted to feel that desire for control was finally satiated.
Speaker 7 12:59 There's one thing I know for sure about the isms or the disorders is that someone's left alone. Someone is alone on an Island and it's not solitude. It's that underlying loneliness that a human being feels when something else is controlling the life. It's a lonely place to be stuck between parents, with isms, trying to figure out what's going on with you, why you have to use, or you think that's the best way to live is to use drugs and alcohol, because it makes you feel normal. You don't have to worry about your mom drinking a whole bottle of wine and you haven't to carry her up the stairs and her not remembering conversations. And you didn't have to worry about your dad. Just not being there. He's your dad. Of course, he probably knew what was going on with you, but he wasn't physically there. He
Speaker 6 13:50 Stepped up. He realized that he had a blow out with one of my sisters. I think that was addressed after that. It seemed like he was home more. He cooked more. I know we did the best he could. I think I can say that for both of my parents. One of them was still sick with alcoholism and one was actually and recovery from workoholism. He was getting better when I was in high school. Isn't that right?
Speaker 7 14:14 Lovely. There was a seed planted there. You didn't know what it was at the time you witnessed someone that addressed their issue, their workaholism, and you saw someone that didn't in your mom and those started drifting further and further apart. Didn't they, when you drifted further, apart from your parents' homes, when you got to college, did you find any sort of community there that you could belong to a new family?
Speaker 6 14:42 Well, the first week I was there, I hung out with several people. I went to high school with, we weren't friends at all. We just kind of were acquaintances and someone to get drunk with. After that several guys in my hallway
Speaker 5 14:52 Said they were joining a fraternity. I thought, what fraternity? Just your fingers. Pop a lock. A dropoff. Just to cut. Just a couple of letters anyway. Yeah, <inaudible> mad. Okay. All right. You joined a fraternity. So I joined a fraternity. I never felt like it was difficult to make friends at college. I felt like I sort of just fell into joining a fraternity. Several guys in my hallway went to do rush, went to a couple of houses. Some are douchebags somewhere. I don't know. I had nothing in common with them. And then talk to some guys at this one house and they were super nice. Then they gave me a bid, which is like an invitation to join the house. Oh my God. They want me, it felt good to be wanted. And I decided to pledge, went through the pledge process for a semester and went to plenty of cool parties and gross basements smells like tank beer and sweat meat, sticking feet, or easy to lose a tennis shoe on there.
Speaker 5 15:56 It felt good to be a part of something greater than myself. I was in sports growing up and it felt good to be part of a team or have a community or collective. So I just kind of fell into it. It was also someplace where I could drink how I wanted to drink it. Wasn't uncommon for someone to try and drink a case of beer. It was like a life goal. When you joined that fraternity, was it similar to that feeling you had when you first drank? I have arrived. I think it was, it felt good to be a part of something to be wanted someplace. It sounds like things are going great. Yeah. Things are going great. And I know that they didn't continue to go. Great. No, no. They didn't. The train wreck happened, Joe. Oh boy. Well,
Speaker 6 16:39 There's plenty of times where I blacked out. I got lost, pissed my pants and someone brought me home. I finally made it home somewhere. One time I drank way too much probably for your reference. 12 beers and the majority of a bleeder of whiskey. I was very intoxicated and talking to this person at a party, trying to be friendly again. I just tried to be friends with everyone trying to be nice. I woke up in his apartment in the morning, still drunk and he was gay. I didn't know what happened. I kind of remember what happened, but I was so drunk and I sorta just filled in the gaps. That was a really bad feeling. I thought I did something wrong. I thought, Holy shit, no one can ever know about this. I can't tell anyone. I didn't for a long time, Joe, what happened? I was sexually assaulted when I was blackout drunk. When I was, my eyes were open and awake. I wasn't, I wasn't able to give consent. Yeah.
Speaker 5 17:36 What did you feel emotionally after that experience? Shame, peer shame. What did you do with that shame? Did you tell anybody about the assault? No. What were you going to do with that? I was going to drink about it. I had to go to
Speaker 6 17:47 A funeral that day. Actually I was still drunk well into the day I went to a funeral reach like vodka. I remember just looking at the front of the church, the person in the casket. And I thought, Oh, I wish I was them. I so wished I was dead that day. It really crushed me. And I wasn't going to tell anyone about it ever
Speaker 7 18:07 Again. Loneliness seems to be a common denominator in your story. What is so beautiful about you sharing that is you are letting one person know help. Who knows how many people have gone through the same thing. You are telling people, one person that you are not alone. You're sitting here living and breathing, which means you are in recovery from sexual assault because you're addressing it. You're talking about it. That is a form of recovery. The most basic form of recovery is still living and breathing. There are various degrees if you will, of recovery. And this degree of recovery is not only commendable. It's, I'm almost envious of your vulnerability. Thank you for sharing that with me.
Speaker 6 18:47 Yeah. I wanted to share it. First of all. Thanks Nick. I wanted to share it because I thought for so long that I could never tell anyone about it that no one could ever know that I would die with this secret, with this thing that, that made me feel so bad about myself
Speaker 7 19:04 Dirty. What did you think at that time? What did you think was going to happen if you told someone
Speaker 6 19:09 That all of a sudden my sexuality is in question my whole life thinking, I feel pretty secure being heterosexual, all of a sudden, Nope. You have things to think about like, are you gay? Did you invite that experience into your life? Would it be different if you had consented to it? Definitely in question of that, but I thought no one can know about that. If I'm gay, then that's going to alienate me from other people. I'll lose friends.
Speaker 7 19:35 Had you ever questioned your sexuality before that experience?
Speaker 6 19:39 No, not really. There were definitely certain moments that I thought am I gay? Probably not actually. Oh, I was, um, salted again too. It's like molested by one of my best friends. When was that? That was after this, you know, the fight flight or freeze. And I froze, he thought I was blacked out drunk basically and started touching me inappropriately. And I thought a couple things. One has he, how long has he felt like this too? How could he do this to me? And what should I do? Should I fight him? Should I run away? And I froze. I was too afraid. She was my best friend. What was your intoxication level? When that was happening? The second assault, it wasn't as much I had woken up from being passed out from drinking and smoking weed. He was just staying at my house for the weekend. You know, we're splitting the bed, which I didn't really have any problem with. Then I woke up to him doing that. And then I wondered, you know, I'd been blocked out drunk so many times, so many times, almost every other time I drank, I was blacked out and I wondered how many other times it had happened. And that's a question I don't want the answer to. What sort of feeling does that give you that uncertainty
Speaker 7 20:48 Of what did happen? What could have happened while you were blacked out
Speaker 6 20:52 Anxiety? Once again, shame and what's discussed. What does it feel like? It feels like sick to your stomach. It feels like a pit in my stomach. A sense of unease that I can't shake, no matter how hard I try, unless I smoke weed, drink something, take a pill, snort something. Unless I get high on something. I'm not getting rid of that. Feeling
Speaker 7 21:16 Substances were the answer to everything weren't they? Yeah, they worked really well. I saw them as my medicine. When did it stop being your medicine and start being your poison? Was there a catalyst moment?
Speaker 6 21:29 I was in school. I think it was my junior year now, although I was behind because I had left for that mental health outpatient. So this is after I get fired from my job drinking every weekend. But now I'm doing benders. I'm drinking Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday's withdrawal day Sundays when I smoke weed and I lay in the bathtub and I get the shakes and everything feels fucked up lots every weekend now. And now it's not just there's night. It's Wednesday night. It's Monday night. It's Tuesday night. Now it's drinking almost every night and doing these benders. So after one, especially especially hard bender, I was withdrawing and having a lot of suicidal ideation. But this time I had a plan, my plan was to go in my shower, use my razor, slit my wrists and my arteries, and just plead out in the shower.
Speaker 6 22:20 I was in the bathroom, looking at the razor blade on the floor. And I went back to my room, curled up in the fetal position. I had been not answering my family. My dad's worried sick about me. So he shows up at my apartment. My roommate lets him in. He finds me crumpled on the floor. He takes me to the hospital. I do a safety check and then I go home with him. And it's when I moved back home with my dad. I knew I needed to stop drinking, but I didn't know that was an alcoholic. Oh, why didn't you kill yourself? I couldn't do it to my family. Honestly. Like
Speaker 7 22:52 Staring at the razorblade on the floor. What was going through your head?
Speaker 6 22:56 I felt alone. I felt scared. I didn't do it. I think partly because of fear, just self preservation. I was scared as fuck. And then I just kind of withdrew. I decided to stop feeling and that's the state I was in when I was in my room. I don't know why I didn't do it. I'm glad I didn't
Speaker 7 23:16 As am I. Yeah. This idea of fear has this sort of redundancy that I've noticed in people that have addiction, mental health issues. It's this fear of fear. It compounds itself. It's like a synergistic effect. And then symptoms begin. Symptoms can come in so many different forms. It can show up like an eating disorder, drinking, using drugs, cutting yourself, multitude of ways. There's this fear of fear. And then a SU there to relieve me of my fear. However, is still there. Not only did I start with fear of fear and then start drinking or filling your blank to get rid of that fear. Now I have fear about what I actually did while alleviating that fear while soothing, that fear. So many people, I talk to have what they call a jumping off place, where they couldn't imagine their lives with or without their addiction. And they wish for the end, your vulnerability, talking about your wishing for your end is invaluable.
Speaker 6 24:14 Thanks. I appreciate it. I know I'm not the only one that's felt that way. Or you might feel that way, right?
Speaker 7 24:22 Joe, it sounds like you are about to get some help for your shit. Didn't kill yourself. No. Curled up in a ball. And daddy came and saved you honestly, though, your dad came. Yeah. So he curled up in a ball and took you to the hospital at the hospital and then took you back to his house.
Speaker 6 24:41 Yeah. Once I move into his house, he doesn't want me to drink. I'm not supposed to drink two weeks into this and maybe it's one week, honestly, I go to this party with the intention of not drinking. Right? So I'm there. People keep saying, have a drink, have a drink. Why don't you have a shot with us? And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm fine. Well, there's this girl that I'm interested and she's there. And she says, why don't you have a drink? Okay. So I had one shot and then said, fuck it. I'm having one shot. I might as well have a couple. And then I got drunk. And then I hooked up with this girl. I slept over. I went back home in the morning before my dad got up. That started it again. Next night I thought, well, I drank yesterday. Um, they have like one drink that lasted for two months.
Speaker 6 25:24 Every day it was getting drunker than the last day. I ended up blocking out and passing out every night. At the end of two months, I got an ultimatum that was from my dad. If you don't get help and don't go to treatment, you can't live here anymore. I thought I'd have one last hurrah that night. I got really drunk, blackout drunk. I overslept as to when I was supposed to call and get my intake assessment and my dad and I got in a shoving match. He was actually shoving me. I remember how I felt because I didn't feel anything. I felt completely numb and withdrawn. I was so out of touch with my emotions, with my spirituality, with my own physical health, that I just felt like a shell that got pushed. I didn't do shit. I realized how fucked up that was. And that was a rough day. I called Plymouth Hazeldon youth facility. Talk to them over the phone about what was happening. And they said, yeah, yeah, your dad told us a little bit about, this seems like you belong here.
Speaker 7 26:21 Oh, okay. I'm going to stop you right there because Joe, you just gave me a perfect segue into our second portion of the show. Joe is about to get some help. We'll be right back.
Speaker 8 26:35 Some people call me space cow, call me the gangster. Uh <inaudible> because I'm a Baker, I'm a grantor and I'm a sinner. Play my music. And I'm a joker. I'm a smoker. Welcome back.
Speaker 5 27:44 Welcome.
Speaker 9 27:44 <inaudible>
Speaker 5 27:46 Welcome back to authen, Nick, where Joe is most certainly getting authentic Joe, at the end of our experience, portion of the show, you were starting to talk about going to inpatient. Yeah. That sounds like you're getting some help, bro. I'm getting some help. All right. Let's explore that. What did that look like when you were given that ultimatum by your dad? Looked like my only option, basically I needed a place to stay. I had zero money. I was going through change drawers to pay for gas, to get to school. So I'd put about a dollar of gas in my car. I calculated the MPGs that my car had. I would put just enough in that I could make it to school. And back if I happened to get $10 or borrow some money from my dad, I would buy a bag of weed or alcohol.
Speaker 5 28:38 Most of that, I'd stoned from the basement bar. Anyway, did my intake over the phone? They said, yeah, I think you belong here. That's weird thought I fooled you, but okay. I guess I'll go. What sort of questions were they asking you? How often are you drinking? What drugs have you tried? How often have you done those in the past? The reasons why you're drinking, is it an escape? I mean, kind of an escape. It was those types of questions. And I had filled one of those out at my last job. I had even fudged my answers to make it seem like I wasn't chemically dependent. I still qualified as being chemically dependent. Even when I tried to beat the system I failed. It definitely gave me a little to think about, I was honestly clueless. I came in to inpatient. So non aware of my own issues didn't know what alcoholism was. I didn't know what addiction was. I knew what it looked like on my mom. I didn't understand it with me. I remember going to parties bringing just a flask and I said, okay, I'll just drink this. Invariably. I would drink the flask. And it was never enough. I would make friends
Speaker 6 29:42 With someone just kind of a vapid relationship and drink their alcohol. And I did that at almost every party and it worked great for me. Well, not so great for me in inpatient was sent into sort of a detox wing for the first night. I was definitely in denial of my own alcoholism until I started going through withdrawals. I had a lot of post acute withdrawal symptoms, which were handshaking, rapid breathing, rapid heart rate, or really low breathing shallow. I just didn't feel right. It was really unsettling. All of a sudden I went from being sort of a shell of a person, really numb and every aspect to feeling everything. All of my emotions came back. I could go from laughing to crying in the blink of an eye. I didn't get that. I was an alcoholic until I talked to other people in there who was my first time in treatment.
Speaker 6 30:32 But for a lot of people, it was their second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, even 10th time in treatment. I remember talking to one guy, his name's Matt. I thought it was a bad person because of my drinking and my drug use. And he said, you're not a bad person. You're just not call it. It was really simple, but it was, it was really profound for me. He said, it's not your fault. That was huge for me. I remember just breaking down and thinking, Oh my God, there's other people with the same problem in here. And instead of a fraternity or a certain friend group, this is where I belong. I'm in the right place. And I really believed it. I experienced a lot of joy in there. Most people really needed help. They were in the same position and I could finally relate to someone and feel understood.
Speaker 6 31:13 I was able to take time away from school and from my life I was so hesitant to go in, but I had literally nothing to lose. I was failing all my classes already. I had no money. I wasn't going to have a place to live. I actually dropped out of school on the way to treatment on my phone. That's how disconnected I was from reality. Did you view this going to treatment in any way as another escape? I didn't at the time, maybe a little bit sort of felt liberating to just throw my hands up and say, fuck it. Why not have literally nothing to lose? I wasn't sure if it would help me or not, but it seemed like the only option at that point. What specifically in treatment allowed you to work through your stuff? Is that why you were there to work through your stuff?
Speaker 6 31:59 Or did you just want to vacation? No. I wanted to work through my stuff. I didn't know exactly what my stuff was. How did you find that out? I found it out through the programming they had there. It was 12 step oriented. We would work through step one. So to speak. A lot of people are in the same position I was in. They were in denial of alcoholism. What is step one, step one. We admitted, we were powerless over alcohol that our lives have become unmanageable. How did you perform or take step one? It was all the costs and consequences of my use. A lot of people are in denial and because I was in denial, I needed to write down the financial costs of my use. How much money
Speaker 5 32:40 Did I spend on alcohol and drugs? Other consequences? Who did I hurt? Who did I isolate? Who did I alienate? Who did I harm in any way? Those were definitely put on there too. It was to solidify the state that my life was in. It was to clear me from the insanity that I was experiencing. And then insanity was, you don't have a problem. You need to drink. You need to get high because that's your medicine. I'm in this program. I like to talk about spam and spam. It was just an acronym for spirituality, physicality, emotions, and mentality. Where were you at spiritually when you first came to inpatient treatment? God is dead. Where were you at? Physically withdrawing withering shell. Where were you? Emotionally? Numb and sad. Numb and sad. If I wasn't numb, I was pretty sad. And what was your mental status when you came into inpatient treatment?
Speaker 5 33:37 All over the place and nowhere. Good. What was your spirituality looking like when you left inpatient treatment? Finally, starting to form. I was open. I had been open before, but in different ways it looked like I'm here for a reason. I survived. Despite everything that happened to me, there were plenty of times where I could have done either by my own hand or by my drug use or by the situations I put myself in or I was put in. I absolutely could have died. And I didn't, I couldn't explain that. And I couldn't explain why there were so many people in the world that were struggling with alcoholism and addiction. I got an opportunity to change. I got an opportunity to get better. It seemed like people were on my side and wanted me to recover. How did you improve physically over the course of your five weeks in inpatient treatment?
Speaker 5 34:24 I gained 20 pounds. 20 good pounds. Yeah. Love me some good pounds. That's right. Yeah. They feed you biscuits and gravy a lot. Yeah. They try and fat and everyone up, which is probably good. Emotionally. Where were you at emotionally? I was still working on it. Had finally been able to talk to a therapist several times there talk to a psychiatrist. It was kind of deciding what route, if any, I wanted to take with mental health. I was aware of it. Things were starting to improve. Where are you addressing that emotional piece? Honestly, at this point, as you had never done before. Why? Because I wanted it. I wanted to feel better. I didn't just want to stop drinking. I wanted to feel better. I wanted to live wherever you at mentally, mentally. I thought what next? Okay. So I'm in treatment for five weeks.
Speaker 5 35:13 I must be cured. I mean, I didn't know what was next. I thought that life was going to go back to somewhat similarly as it had been going before, right. I was going to get right back into school, full time, move back to the U of M. Maybe I joined my fraternity again, probably hanging out with all my old friends where the main activity was passing and balling around a circle and watching Kung Fu movies. But I just watched the Kung Fu movies. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't smoke that bond. Little did I know none of that would happen. I was recommended to move into a sober house. I had no idea what a sober house was before my friend moved into one who was discharged two days before me. So I decided to move into the same one. That was a great decision. The house was mostly guys my own age, early twenties.
Speaker 5 35:54 Actually, I was still 21. At that point, everyone was in their early twenties. Everyone was in the same mindset. People wanted recovery and people wanted to change. We went to meetings four or five times a week, smoked cigarettes. We drank coffee. And then I went to outpatient treatment. I went to day treatment for a number of months where it felt like a regurgitation of what I learned in inpatient. There was a group setting where we could talk about things. Life outside of that little bubble called treatment is a lot different temptation. Is there, you know, I lived down the street from a liquor store. How can a silver house be by a liquor store? Well, they're everywhere. So I got over it, but it was dealing with the little challenges that came up while my mind was still healing. Would you say that making the decision to go to that sober house after treatment is the sole reason why you stayed clean and sober at that time?
Speaker 5 36:49 Yes. Yeah. I know. I couldn't have done it alone. It would have been extremely difficult to do it. Not in a setting where everyone was working on recovery, I've been in sober houses or groups where people weren't all that interested in it. And this particular moment, it really made a difference. It was one of those life changing moments. It sounds like you're getting a lot of how. Yes. I would like to know what wasn't helpful. What wasn't helpful about treatment. It felt like it was very structured, which is good. There was a portion of treatment where you had to hold other peers accountable for their actions, for addict behavior, minor indiscretions, like not getting up on time or missing part of your chore or I can't even remember why wasn't that helpful? I think it wasn't helpful or I didn't see it helpful as at the time, because it started unnecessary drama within the unit.
Speaker 5 37:43 When you got held accountable from your peer. Oh see you mean life being very lifelike. Yeah. Actions and consequences. I didn't like those. So it was more so the mental state you are in at the time, there was this microcosm. There was like this compressed, Oh, of recovery going on. And every little thing would set somebody off. What wasn't helpful about being in the sober house, sober houses are really, it'd be really sensitive. And it's a challenge to live with nine other people at the first house I was at, I shared a bathroom with, I think, eight guys, which is not ideal. That was stressful. The general shitty layout of the house, my house manager was a hard ass. If you didn't make your three meetings, you were going to get your ass shoot, guaranteed, no matter who you were, that accountability made, hit
Speaker 10 38:36 My meetings. And it made me, these are 12 step meetings. Those made me hit my meetings, hold other people accountable to going to meetings and to recover. Did you ever explore any other form of recovery, some sort of sustainable program outside of 12 step because they do exist and they do save lives just like 12 step programs. Did you ever venture into those realms? I've had limited exposure to those. I did go to smart recovery. I really liked the message. They had a huge focus on mental health, sort of that dual diagnosis of mental health and addiction, which I thought was really helpful. Only attended one meeting, supporting a friend who is going, I think it's a great option. In addition to 12 steps or rather than 12 steps. I also went to meditation meetings that weren't necessarily 12 step affiliated focused on meditation. They have them at certain meditation centers and Zen centers.
Speaker 10 39:29 That was very helpful in fomenting my own spirituality. Out of all those experiences of avenues of recovery, where any of those ever traveled alone? No. Never. Why do you think that is maybe fear is part of it? I was scared to check things out. My recovery doesn't exist in a bubble. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. I recover with other people. We recover. The only reason I realized I was an alcoholic was because I heard the experience of other alcoholics and it made me realize that we had something in common that they found a solution and had a totally different life than they had before. What would you say to someone that tells you that they can recover all on their own and they don't need anybody's help. You're full of shit. Really? That's blunt. I would never say that to someone in person, but I would say think hard about it.
Speaker 10 40:20 I had an illusion that I could do everything on my own or that I had done a lot of things on my own in the past. If I really thought about it, I realized how many people had actually helped me along the way. Since you're not doing it alone. How do you help others? At first, I helped others by volunteering at meetings. I put away chairs, I made coffee. I volunteered for service positions while I was still working. The 12 steps I was there for my friends. If someone needed to talk, I would always talk. Eventually when I got through the 12 steps, I decided to sponsor people. What's a sponsor. Sponsor is someone who goes through the basic text of alcoholics anonymous or whatever 12 step program. You work, go through the 12 steps with you, work them to completion. There's someone who you can call when you're having difficult time. Basically someone who can help guide you to find longterm sobriety. How do you wish to be supported in this fellowship that you described? Just want someone there for me, someone to listen. I want to hear different perspectives. I don't want to be trapped in my own echo chamber. I want to hear the truth, whatever that may be. I pick a sponsor and I pick friends in recovery that have something that I want. If they're at peace, they have a sense of serenity. They have joy in their life. Those are all that I want
Speaker 5 41:34 In my life. Those are the people I choose to hang around with. Relapse is a part of your story. We discussed that before we started talking tonight, who helped you when you relapsed my sponsor and my friends and my home group. How did they know you had relapsed? I told them why? Because you could have just smoked weed a couple of times or petted drank and been like, Oh shit, that was fun. I probably shouldn't have done that, but nobody knows nobody was there. I just did it all by myself, whatever. Nobody's got it. Now, just this one time. Of course, that temptation's there. I was so sick of lying to myself. Not even to other people. Of course, I don't like to lie to other people and that's not something I try and do. I was so sick of lying to myself for so long about this glaring problem that I just could not get myself to understand or accept.
Speaker 5 42:23 And I lied about a lot of other things. My perspective was that I was a victim in life. Sometimes the world was out to get me all this shit happened to me. Why me? I really went full circle. My perspective changed on a lot of things. What were the reactions of the people in your fellowship when you did come clean? No pun intended. Fuck it. Pun intended. When you did come clean with them about your relapse, what was their reaction? It's almost disappointingly. Non-reactive a very interesting way. It's beautiful people. Relapse is a part of many people's stories. All I felt was acceptance. All I felt was great. What else is new? I felt a lot of warmth. A lot of support people congratulated me when I had a few days sober again. When I got 30 days sober in the past, the same thing happened when I relapsed and I got a year again, there's a saying called we don't shoot our wounded.
Speaker 5 43:20 And that's so important because I was feeling shame. I was really nervous to go back, but I'm so glad I did. I was welcomed with open arms. You've relapsed recently. Haven't you? I sure have. What number relapse has this been for you since you went to inpatient treatment? This is my second. Why have you relapsed a second time? I got complacent one and I was looking for answers. Complacent about what about my recovery? I define sober in recovery. It's different things. You can not drink and still be an asshole. For example, I define recovery as working a program, whatever you choose it to be, it doesn't have to be 12 steps, whatever you choose it to be. Does it have to be a program? I guess not. What do you think is the one common thread that has to be present? You can't just do it alone.
Speaker 5 44:09 You have to ask others for help. It doesn't have to be God, but you need to find something other than yourself that you can rely on and that you can turn to for help. As far as the 12 step program that you're working is concerned, is that a God program? You mentioned the word God a few times. I would say not in the way that one might think of God. How would you explain it? Then? It's literally whatever you want. When I first started, it was God equals group of drunks. It was the people sitting next to me in an AA meeting. It was people that I had heard their stories, which were far more extreme than mine. And they'd recovered. They'd found peace. They'd found serenity. They'd found joy. They'd found things that I wanted. It proved to me that I could rely on these people for help.
Speaker 5 44:53 I couldn't do it alone over time that evolved my higher power still evolves. It's not necessarily just a group of drunks anymore. So it's not actually, God, God is just a word that you use. It's a higher power. It's a higher power. Yeah. As long as it's not you. Exactly. That's how it works. Right? You don't do it alone and you need to find a higher power. That's what the 12 step program is pushing. Is that right? That's right. As long as you have a higher power that isn't you to give your shit to something, to believe in something, to have faith in something to have trust in, as long as it isn't, you sounds pretty simple. What would you say to someone that has relapsed and is afraid to come back to whatever recovery fellowship they belong to just act on it? Don't think about it.
Speaker 5 45:44 Just act on it. If you have that sliver of motivation to go to your old home group or go to a random meeting and be brave, raise your hand and say, I have 24 hours or I'm still drinking. I'm struggling. However much time you have. You don't even have to be sober. All you need is a desire to stop drinking. I had a desire to stop drinking and I was welcomed back. The only requirement for your membership in this 12 step program is just a desire to stop drinking. You don't even have to be sober. Now I could have been drunk. Yeah. That entrance exam is pretty easy. Yeah. It's pretty easy, Joe. How do you wish to be supported now that you've made it back to your sober tribe? You've relapsed a couple of times. You've strung together a few years here a year there.
Speaker 5 46:31 How do you wish to be supported now that you've quote unquote, gone back out and done some more experimentation and come back with the realization that I have, this thing I have this affliction, I have this illness. I have this disease, whatever you want to call it, you got the addiction. Boy, you got the, a word they MRI. How do you wish to be supported in your recovery community? I just want the same support as everyone else. I want to hear people's experience. I want to be able to talk to people. I want to be able to relate to people. I just want to be a person in a meeting getting help. What does a supportive voice sound like in your meetings? Supportive voice sounds like speaking their truth and their experience. It doesn't matter how prophetic you sound. How many years or weeks or months or days. It doesn't matter. I just want to hear the truth from people. When I hear that and I hear people's experience, it gives me hope. What was that word? You just used. Hope
Speaker 1 47:30 <inaudible>.
Speaker 7 47:31 Thank you for the segue, Joe. You're welcome. Killing it tonight, man. We are going to take one more break. We will be right back with Joe and he's going to give us some
Speaker 11 47:43 <inaudible>.
Speaker 7 47:48 Is that good? Was that a good one? That was good.
Speaker 13 48:04 Bang, bang, bang, sit down. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
Speaker 14 48:15 Right? God. And grew up around some people living their life in battle plenary at the goat and flash backstroke everyday U Chicago. Some people like the way it feels. Some people want to kill their sorrow. Some people wouldn't to fit in with the gender. That was my problem. I was in the dark room now, tomes looking to make a bow song that I'm gonna get fucked up, filling up my capacity, the crowd mood changing by the minute and the record over Pete to cassette in and out the sip. And somebody said to me, <inaudible>
Speaker 1 49:04 <inaudible> yay,
Speaker 7 49:11 Joe, are you ready to talk about some help? Yes.
Speaker 1 49:13 So Charles, to talk about
Speaker 7 49:16 Favorite section, because we really get to talk about solutions. We get to talk about solutions. We get to really dig into breaking stigma. Even though we've broken a tone of stigma already. Let's really let's smash at home. Yeah. That stigma shall we? What do you do today? As in today? What did you do today to further and nourish your sobriety today? Since I relapsed my sponsor and I came up with things I want in my life, things I want to change. So every morning to try and work on my spirituality. I say, please, and that's all I say, I don't necessarily say, please, God help me. Sometimes I do say, please, universe, help me. Help someone, help me be the best person I can be today and just do my best. You're not asking for a Lamborghini, not every day. I'd asked for a houseboat. I've always wanted to live on a houseboat. I'd love a houseboat someday. Someday. We'll build that together. Joe, how have your relationships improved with your family? My relationships with my family were more broken than I thought and they've changed drastically. I didn't realize I had been isolating. I alienated my family from, by not
Speaker 6 50:28 Showing up to things by not being there by not being a good brother and a good son that changed. I made amends to both of my sisters and my mom and my dad. So that looked like taking a deep look at how my relationship was with them in the past. So where I had been wrong, where I'd hurt them and what I needed to own up to that looked like not showing up to things. I tried to do my amends. So I would say all the things I did wrong, then I would ask them, is there anything I missed? I would say, I really value this relationship. I want to change. I want it to be better. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to, to change.
Speaker 7 51:06 So you didn't say you were sorry. I probably snuck it in there at one point. But out of habit, many addicts have rendered the statement. I'm sorry. Completely meaningless. I know I did it. Wasn't that when I made my amends to my parents, I always proceeded in amend with, I know I may have rendered the term. I'm sorry, meaningless. So if you don't want to hear that while I'm making this proper amends to you, please say so now not one person. Don't say, sorry. Yeah. People still want to hear I'm sorry. I mean, so I still say it. I don't use it as often as it did. I used it as a filler word a lot. I felt like I was always fucking up and I often was fucking out. Maybe it was warranted now I don't just say it and still fuck up. I mean, of course I still fuck up, but what do you do when you do fuck up? I own up to it right away.
Speaker 6 51:58 I do my best to change. I really am honest with myself when I think an apology is warranted. And when I think change is warranted, no on the flip side of that, it's also not saying, sorry, when I don't need to having a sense of, am I saying,
Speaker 7 52:12 Sorry, because I'm insecure or I'm fearful or I feel less than, or am I saying sorry, because I actually heard someone and they need to hear that outside of your 12 step program that you're working, what are you putting out into the universe? How are you helping others? You've said that multiple times. I just want to help others. I go out and help somebody else. What are you actually doing to help others? And how does that affect you once you help someone else? I think right now I don't sponsor anyone because I need to work the steps again. And I'm talking about outside of your recovery bubble. To me, it's being a good friend, helping where I can, that shows up more often than I think random people needing help with something out of the blue, like a guy is outside of his condo and he's struggling to drag a mattress up. He has three flights of stairs. So I'm like, Hey, do you need help carrying your mattress up the stairs? And he's like, Oh yeah, that'd be cool. Are you secretly hoping? He says no. And then when he says, yes, you're like, Oh fuck, uh, yeah. I mean a little bit, you made the offer. He says, yes, I need help. And then I fucking do it. You fucking do.
Speaker 10 53:25 If I'm looking to do it, these things show up. When I put that into the universe, that helped me help someone. I see things that I normally wouldn't see. My mindset is that if someone needs help with something, no matter how small or large or whatever, I'm generally willing to help someone. And that could be just giving someone a ride somewhere. Oftentimes it's being a good friend. It's listening. When someone needs to vent, reaching out to people I haven't heard from that, I think are lonely. Especially now I'm trying to reach out to people more. I realized that people are isolated and cut off from human connection that I need and I desire. And I think other people do too.
Speaker 7 54:04 You can have a little experiment here, little mental experiment. Sure. If you remove the 12 steps and your fellowship completely from your life, they don't exist. How would you tell someone how to get help? Someone that is struggling through the exact same things. You have chemical dependency, depression, anxiety, sexual assault. How does one get help? 12 steps don't exist because you called that your solution. Let's say magically, poof, the 12 steps never existed. It's tough to answer that because my recovery has been so rooted in that. Well then what is at the root of the 12 steps at the root of the 12 steps?
Speaker 10 54:44 This is one finding your truth, finding out what the actual truth is, not the lies that your mind is constructed. That you're a shitty person or that this is just a phase or I'm sad. So I'm drinking. I'm happy. So I'm drinking or I'm using all of that is to me
Speaker 7 55:00 False. How do I find the truth, that truth that you're talking about? How do I find that?
Speaker 10 55:04 I find it with the help of others? I think the first thing to do is ask for help. It's calling the addiction hotline, telling a close friend or a family member. If you're comfortable with it, it is absolutely reaching out. I needed a life raft. It felt like I was drowning. I think a lot of people have that feeling,
Speaker 7 55:23 Reach out. Someone's going to be there. Speaking of someone being there, I offer support to anyone listening to this program. If you identify with something in today's program or, you know, someone that identifies with something mentioned in today's program, please, please, please, please, please reach out to me at that email address mentioned at the beginning of the show,
[email protected]. That's a U T H E N I C K. The
[email protected]. Reach out to you talked about your suicidal ideation and you talked about a near suicide attempt. So many people that suffer with mental illness that suffer with addiction that suffer with any sort of hardship, any sort of malady, any sort of difficulty. Sometimes it feels like the only way out, the only way to alleviate that pain is to stop living. Why do you think you are not one of those suicide statistics?
Speaker 10 56:27 I don't know. I very well could have been. I just had people in my life that intervened at the right moment and guided me to a place where I could get help. How do you explain that? It's honestly unexplainable or inexplainable explicable inexplicably. So I fucked up twice gone, done fucked up, but I can't explain why I had it. I just feel an immense sense of gratitude. I know that if circumstances were different, I wouldn't be talking to you here. I'm so grateful for that. My life has changed so much. It looks so much different than what I thought it would be. And so much better
Speaker 7 57:03 Living with gratitude seems to be a common thread with people that have found a fellowship in which they can share a common peril with people that have gotten sober, gotten clean, gotten help, or whatever it is that they are struggling with. Why is it so important to be thankful when all this shitty stuff has happened to you, as you said earlier,
Speaker 10 57:26 Right? Because that's literally how my brain was wired. My synapses were firing to say, this is fucked up. You should drink about this. You should get high about this. My brain was wired towards negativity. I've always considered myself an optimist sometimes to a fault, really being grateful, changes the way I perceive the world. When I'm not thinking gratitude, I tend to devolve into thinking everything. Shit. It's really easy to notice all the injustice, all of the pain, all the suffering in the world or in your own life. I think I'm of maximum service and helpfulness to other people when I'm grateful. And I can talk to people in a place of gratitude and optimism.
Speaker 7 58:09 I am so grateful that you got vulnerable and talked about your experience with sexual assault. What do you want to say to someone who has experienced that, that has not talked about it thinks they can not talk about it thinks they will never just know. I will never talk about this.
Speaker 10 58:30 It's only hurting you. That was the case for me. I think people will find their voice when it's time to find their voice. But I really encourage people to talk about it. It's not something that goes away. Those feelings of shame continue. They really affected and still sometimes affect my mental health and my wellbeing. I didn't do anything wrong yet. It is still my responsibility to help myself. And that goes for any type of trauma that people experienced and addiction and all of this, all of the isms, it's not your fault, but it's your responsibility to recover. You know, you deserve to recover.
Speaker 7 59:09 It always crosses my mind. When I talk to people about their recovery, they say, it's really not about me. It's about weight. It takes a village in order to find lasting and most meaningful sobriety or recovery from whatever it is that you have survived, that you are in recovery from four people in your boat, take medication, go to 12 step meetings, talk to other people, help other people. Do you do therapy?
Speaker 6 59:36 I don't yet. You're open to it. Yeah. I'm open to it. I tried it before, but I could be honest up to a certain point cause I was still drinking some night wanted to protect, but I'm open to it. And I realized that my own experience with trauma, isn't going to go away. It's easier now. I still see it impacting my relationships, friendships and romantic relationships.
Speaker 7 59:58 It's pretty sure you smashed just about every stigma possible. There is stigma that surrounds going to therapy. There is stigma around taking mental health medication. There is stigma around going to 12 step meetings. There is stigma about talking about your side of the street and actually trying to clean it up and have it be meaningful, not just doing something to please someone else. Why is it so important for you to embody those things? Why is it so important for you to come on this program and say, Hey, I take mental health medication. Hey, I've done therapy and you know what? I'm open to doing more therapy. Hey, I go to 12 step programs. Hey, I can't do this alone. Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey. Hey.
Speaker 6 00:43 Why? Because I wish I would have heard me talk in the past. I wish I would have heard this and thought maybe I could do that because I really needed that. And I didn't have it for a long time. I didn't think I'd ever have it.
Speaker 7 00:54 Maybe just, maybe there's a reason why you were not allowed or couldn't hear yourself talk. Maybe just, maybe you were meant to have all those experiences. Maybe you were meant to have an alcoholic. Mom. Maybe you were meant to be sexually assaulted. Maybe you were meant to go through this journey so you can help one person. I hope so. I think you've certainly done that today.
Speaker 15 01:18 Thanks Dan.
Speaker 7 01:20 No, Joe, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. You are vulnerable and unflappable testimony. I know has helped someone. You have saved a life here tonight, Joe, what do you want your legacy as a human being to be?
Speaker 6 01:42 Hmm. I want to add more to the stream of life. I just want to add more positivity if it's possible. Like that's like the only thing I want.
Speaker 7 01:52 Damn. It's so basic that it is just all encompassing and it's got this beautiful generality to it. The spectrum of possibilities is infinite. I like that. All right, Joe, we've come to the end of our show. Thank you so much for being here too.
Speaker 6 02:14 Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been really great, right?
Speaker 7 02:17 As always, we have to pay credit where credit is due here on authentic, staying authentic, the musical stylings you heard tonight as always. We opened the show with mama, mama, mama, mama, mad madness. I'm use at our first break. You heard the joker by Steve Miller band. Then you heard some Kendrick Lamar, women pools and Joe, what have you chosen to send us off with? I've chosen to send you off with 40 marks Casa by the shins wonderful choice. <inaudible> is that good? DACA, DACA. We talked earlier about a sign offline. I know I have the best one in the business. However I want to see if you can top me. What you got, you deserve recovery. I like it. Keep it back,
Speaker 0 03:07 Joe. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you so much for listening to authentic today. It's always a pleasure to have you, if you or someone, you know, or someone, you know, that knows someone that knows someone, you know, or doesn't know any of those, I'll figure that one out. If you know someone that is struggling with this, please don't hesitate to reach
[email protected]. Please remember that you are not alone. Remember that there's help remember that there is hope. Be good to yourselves. It's important.
Speaker 2 03:46 Okay.
Speaker 16 03:59 Is it all very simple and there's nothing coming down your mom's looks in the kitchen, cutting the Creek. Then you pass the bar. You phone the second home that leaves you on your, Not that often watch you rode across the grounds to the motorway. You found, you had to know our son too young to know just what it was. Something more than a friend
Speaker 17 04:59 <inaudible> <inaudible>
Speaker 16 05:39 <inaudible> they go on funds. You did have you got that final check <inaudible> blowing. Ben, the pain you got the hot look you
Speaker 17 06:10 <inaudible> <inaudible> <inaudible> <inaudible> <inaudible> <inaudible> <inaudible>.
